Thinking Out Loud - Toying with Going back to Lantus

I LOVE LOVE LOVE not having a pod on me. My body is my own again. I can sit how I want. I can get in my car without thinking about it. I can clean my house with whatever arm I want to. I can log roll across my living room floor just because…which I did last night, by the way. I can play sports with my kids. I can cuddle with them and sit with them. I can wear what I want. I can walk my neighborhood as fast and as frequently as I want to. And I feel less bionic.

I started with a conservative single dose of Lantus last night. I’m in high hormone times right now so I’m keeping that in mind with what I see today. So far so good. I will be really curious to see how early it wears off this evening because I’m on a pretty darn low dose by weight.

I love having the Sugarmate app to log my injections this time around with shots. I’ve instituted my safeguards to make sure that I only dose Lantus once and that I can tell that I’ve done so (in case I’m multi-tasking…which is always). I’m also using my good old fashioned notebook to keep track of what matters.

I have cautious optimism here. But I’m going to be patient with it. What I’m looking for is quality of life and balance, not perfection.

Major goal: Keep myself alive.
Next major goal: Improved quality life based on my own standards.
Last goal: Respectable and predictable control without a lot of OH SH!T drops in my day across the full month of hormonal variation that I live with.

I’m thinking what I may end up eventually trying is keeping the conservative nightly Lantus dose, and then taking a supporting unit or few of Lantus in the morning to help with eating, hormones and what I suspect will be the early wear off. We’ll see.

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Those are great goals for anyone, while DMs with 2 X chromosomes have more to deal with along with all those other things that jack with our insulin sensitivity and blood glucose levels.

I don’t really know you Allison, but you are an inspiration. Keep on, keeping on!

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Thank you so much! I love your posts and insight!

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On a more serious (and boring) note, I wanted to bring out a few points for this thread.

These are all thing that you already know. But I just wanted to post them for people reading this who might be new to this sort of thing and are maybe not as familiar with the differences in MDI/basal and a pump. Some of the advantages and disadvantages.

Most any basal insulin like Levemir or Lantus or Tresiba is less impacted by changes in activity or temperature or site. Those basals are in general more consistent than the micro-doses of rapid insulin that are used in pumps. I like MDI and basal insulin a lot for those reasons.

The downside is if you want to go to zero basal, which is pretty difficult on MDI. And if you have varying basal amounts like day versus night, or want to change your basal amounts quickly.

So like anything else in diabetes, there is no perfect solution. We just choose the least crappy.

I can imagine that you have a lot of spontaneous activity with your kids, and your basal will not be as impacted by the activity level as a rapid from a pump would be. Big plus there.

Also all your hay-rolling - no pod to worry about, so another big plus. :joy:
(Okay, couldn’t keep it all serious. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: )

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My basal rates total 9.55 units of insulin each day. I’m almost always running an extra 10-20%. So that puts me between 10.5 and 11.5 units daily.

I chose 10 units of Lantus for night #1 just to be conservative because I want to scale up slowly. The limiting factors for me will likely be finding a balance between the overnight drop/2PM drop that I get and the sticky morning highs and stubborn lunch time numbers. My plan is to supplement with Novolog during the times that my needs exceed the Lantus that I’m taking…and supplement with food when the Lantus is exceeding my hourly needs.

Wednesday night I deactivated my pod at 9:30PM and I took my 10 units of Lantus. I went low at 11PM. I believe that was due to the pod basal that hadn’t been used up in my system overlapping with the Lantus as it was kicking in. Thursday was not an impressive day blood sugar wise, but it was safe. I ate breakfast and took a walk and that all went well. Lunch behaved stubbornly. I fasted from 11AM until 7PM to see what the Lantus was doing in my system. It was still in effect as of 7PM when I ate dinner…so I know it has at least 21.5 hours of effectiveness for me. I’ll be curious to test that again later to see if I can determine when Lantus gives up the ghost in my system more accurately.

Thursday night I added a unit and took 11 units of Lantus. I held steady all night with no drop and then climbed upon waking. Today (Friday) has been more manageable on the food front. I’ve eaten more which is nice. My numbers are better today than yesterday.

I will add another unit tonight (12 units total) and see how that goes. Past experience tells me that if I’m not seeing any drop overnight…and my morning numbers are this stubborn…I need more Lantus. I’m on Day 16 of my cycle which puts me squarely at the doorstep of the “nothing will behave well for the next two weeks and then your insulin needs will suddenly drop without warning one day which is not predictable or consistent at all” timeframe. Maybe I’ll be singing a very different tune about Lantus and pods by then. Who knows?

I continue to love not wearing a pod. The only thing I am able to use the pod for is basal and MAYBE up to a one unit correction, one time per pod site. The truth of the matter is that my body is not “hospitable” to the pod, I think that’s how @Eric phrased it. So…if I can add the Lantus shot and ditch the pod and maintain or improve my control and quality of life, I’ll be the happiest girl EVER. I’m already taking a million shots a day on the pod. Adding a Lantus shot is a non-event. It’s just what happens with that Lantus that I’m trying to get a handle on.

So 12 units tonight. I’ll adjust meal shots accordingly. This is all a game of keeping my balance on shifting sands. Thanks hormones and diabetes. This is so much fun. :slight_smile:

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Alright. Truth be told, I’m also pretty tired from highs and vigilance and not sleeping well the last two nights with these changes.

I’m going back to the pod tonight bc we have a lot of stuff planned this weekend. Maybe I can figure something out. But I do want to get rested again and when the pod works, it’s way better for sleep.

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My approach is to swap the pod to zero basal and inject just half of my daily lantus; so I use 12IU/day and inject 6IU. This balances out my 0.5IU/hour pod basal and the “start time” of Lantus ends up matching the end time of the *log that I’m using in the pod. Once I worked this out things seemed to work pretty much the with the pod and Lantus.

Keeping the pod on is just me preferring it for boluses; I do this when I dive and the pod fails after at most two dives then I’m trying to micro-bolus corrections with a pen.

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I slept from 11pm until 8am with nice steady numbers. As much as I hate the pod, I do love sleep.

I was religious about not sleeping on top off the pod. I think I succeeded. That’s weird to train yourself for that.

I will say that I’m proud of myself for jumping onto shots and back off of it safely by myself. I never would have done that before now. I was frustrated enough and confident enough to try it. So there’s that!

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I’ve been following your Pod trials with interest, Allison. I missed something in your attempt to ditch the Pod for Lantus. What were you using for bolus? Or what you relying on Lantus alone?

BTW - I am a firm believer in experimenting and tweaking our treatment to get good results. I see plenty of anecdotal evidence that what works for Moe might or might not work for Jo.

I wonder if endos who should know better discount or disbelieve the problems that hormonal changes every 28 days are so can have on a woman’s blood glucose management?

Your gender has gotten the short end of the stick on many medical issues, for example heart disease. Fortunately medical professionals are finally getting it that it doesn’t present itself in the usual male fashion. I mean, can’t they understand the statistics that heart disease is the #1 killer of women?

Rant over, take care of yourself.

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I’ve been injecting Novolog for meals and corrections for the last few years, and using the pod for basal.

I’m the type of diabetic who uses 30% of my TDD for basal, and 70% for boluses. Some pod users on here have discovered that 3 units tends to be the magic line of demarcation for when tunneling and leaking begins. And 3 units does not do much at all for me as far as eating is concerned. So that’s why I inject for eating. I was getting so much leaking/failing/bruising trying to bolus for anything…corrections or meals. So shots it is for that part.

Absolutely. I have yet to find one who puts any stock in it. At least enough to actually have any kind of healthy curiosity about it. My doctors tend to view me as the expert on anything related to my own health. Which is why I just use them for lab work and prescriptions.

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I was religious about this for five years … until by accident several months ago I slept on a pod and discovered … the sky didn’t fall. OK, if it’s close to a rib it can be mildly uncomfortable, but mostly, if it’s between my body and the mattress, there’s no effect whatsoever. No bleeding, no absorption changes. I am back to happily rolling from side to side throughout the night.

There are endos out there who acknowledge this. Dr Jerilynn Prior, in Vancouver, BC, has been a leader in the field since the early 1980s. (She was my endo back then and introduced me to the idea that guys can be affected by hormones too.) I wonder if her outfit, the Centre for Menstrual Cycle and Ovulation Research, would have names of sympathetic endos in your area.

http://www.cemcor.ca/

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So after a good night’s sleep and an awesomely huge breakfast with unlimited coffee, I did some digging and am encouraged and horrified by what I did not know.

Doing the Lantus trial these last two days has been a big confidence booster for me. Part of what has made pod failures so scary is the thought, “If I can’t make this work, what the heck am I going to do long term? How do I limp this along? What if it all gets beyond my ability to pinch hit for it?” But when I had my pod failure on Tuesday as I was walking into the store, I calmly injected enough Novolog to get me through my shopping trip until I’d get home. That’s huge for me! And now that I’ve seen Lantus for admittedly just two days, that’s given me some great clarity for how to jump into it, how to jump out of it, and what to do while I’m using it. That is very confidence building for me. I know I can handle issues and keep life going safely through a variety of methods. They may not be pretty or convenient, but they’re safe.

So, the horrified part…

The thing that really pushed me to switch back to podding last night was seeing Lantus give up the ghost on my Dexcom. My blood sugar started climbing at 8PM and I was 90 minutes until my Lantus dose. And that takes 90 minutes to get going. And I had been pinch-hitting with shots all dang day long and was pretty well over it at that point.

BUT, and don’t FUD-judge me for this, I HAD NO IDEA THAT LANTUS DID NOT LAST 24 HOURS FOR THE EIGHT YEARS I USED IT. All of the research and reading and tinkering I had always done on my own…never freakin’ knew that Lantus gave up the ghost early. I also had never fasted on Lantus to see what it did throughout the day. No one ever recommended that. Going on the pod and basal testing with Gary Scheiner’s group is what taught me what my body’s needs were throughout the day. That’s HUGE knowledge to have. Especially when going back to Lantus.

My doctors never ever ever said, “Hey, your evening spikes might be from Lantus running out early.” What they did say was, “You need to carb count more carefully. You need to see the dietician again. You need to change your meal composition. You need to measure it twice. You need to be more careful with your dosing. You need to get on the treadmill longer/more frequently/etc.” And sometimes they’d also say, “You’re diabetic. This is just diabetes and there is nothing you can do about it. You’re trying too hard. Just accept it.”

And mind you, I did two high risk diabetic pregnancies with bad ass A1C’s the whole effing time. Without knowing that Lantus was the cause of my late evening spikes. There was nothing I could have done to fix that problem without better knowing the WHY behind the spike.

And I think this is where my irrational fear of lows has been coming from. I was solving the wrong problem that was unsolvable so long as I didn’t know that Lantus’ duration was the problem.

I think so often in diabetes we find what works for us and just stick with it because when you change one thing, it’s a whole house of cards. At least that’s how it’s been for my journey. Until FUD.

I went down to my basement this morning to see which diabetes binders I’d kept from my journey. I knew that I’d thrown most of them out after getting established on the pod.

Fortunately, I did keep both pregnancy binders. And holy hell, I feel so bad for that version of me back then. But I’m proud of her, too. She fought and worked like hell to get those boys here.

But every.single.freaking.fax.cover.sheet to my endo with my week’s logs through BOTH pregnancies say, “My blood sugar is less predictable at night because of my variation of meals for dinner. I continue to struggle with late evening spikes but will try to keep those in check with corrections and better planning.”

That. Was. Lantus. Running. Out.

Now I know that. Now that makes meal dosing much less full of voodoo. No wonder I’ve been so concerned about dinner doses all these years. I didn’t know what problem I was trying to solve.

If I were to use Lantus, I’d probably need 11 units up to around 14 units for hormones based on what I know now about my body. Looking through my pregnancy binders, I got as low as 6 units of Lantus (that happens through hormonal shifts in the first trimester). And I got as high as 21 units in my first pregnancy. And I got as high as…wait for it…44 units of Lantus in my second pregnancy. I was terrified that whole time of falling off of the consciousness cliff…but when you’re growing a baby and need to keep it under 130, you do what you have to do.

My endo in my second pregnancy recommended switching from Lantus to Levemir. But he was not at all strategic in how to do that like @Eric is. It was more of floating a balloon over like, well, take something different, but take it the exact same way, and just see what happens. To me, being in my second trimester was not the time to just say, “What the hell? Let’s do something different without any real explanation of what we’re solving and how this will solve that.” I figured I’d stick with the devil I knew (or thought I knew) rather than introducing an unknown one. And then I switched endos. And then she fired me as a pregnant patient saying we were “incompatible” because I would not allow her complete dictatorial control of my meal doses and Lantus doses. I’ve told you all how she fired me over my dosing for potatoes. And under her planning, I went two full weeks in my second trimester without gaining a single pound. That’s dangerous. She said that was my fault and sent me to a dietician. That dietician apologized to me for wasting my time because I already knew everything she was in charge of teaching me. So we instead talked about hospital administration politics and which endo I should try next.

I think it’s clear that I have been carrying around a lot of baggage that I didn’t quite know what it was from. But I feel like this experiment with Lantus has clarified the overwhelming majority of my fears surrounding dosing and lows.

A big thank you to everyone on FUD who has read anything I’ve written, encouraged me, lovingly said some diplomatic version of, “Maybe you’re freaking out too much” (which is totally fair), given strategic advice, and biggest of all, thank you to @Eric. He has taught me soooo much not only about diabetes management, but much more about living well and living compassionately for others. Thank you.

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Thanks, Allison, my current basal:bolus ratio is 81%:29%. It probably has something to do with my tired Beta cells still have some output. Maybe more stimulated by food, I don’t know. I had to figure it out on my own.

I am currently weighing the pros and cons to pumping, thinking about a T:Slim X2, tubes and all. I think I can manage any entanglements.

Currently I am on Lantus 25u TDD and 7 to 8u of Humalog.

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I think that 24 hours thing is an average, but individuals are not average. Before I started MDI I was splitting my Lantus dose in 2, 2/3rds at bedtime and the other 1/3rd 12 hours later. This was to prevent nocturnal hypos 6 hours after injection. Also it gave me a little leeway on the morning dose. I could delay it until after my morning bike ride.

After I started MDI I noticed a problem with BG ramping up sharply as the Humalog curve declined. It didn’t matter what I ate or the bolus dose. So I started doing 3 Lantus injections, 10u in the morning, 10 - 30 to 60 minutes before lunch and 5 - 30 to 60 minutes before dinner. This really has flattened my BG. The lower dose in early evening is good for the night.

I wouldn’t suggest this to anyone, just an example as how we are different. Do what works.

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That’s awesome and exactly right.

I’m even more cavalier, in that I don’t carry short-acting with me when I go to the store, in the confidence that missing a couple hours of basal isn’t a threat, just a nuisance. I’ll arrive home and maybe need a rage bolus, but no damage done.

The cavalier part is that I’m depending on being able to get home within a reasonable timeframe in case of pod failure. If I were more cautious, maybe I’d carry an empty syringe, at least in the car, knowing that I could draw insulin out of the failed pod — hmmm, maybe I should put a syringe in the car, together with a copy of the prescription label to try to avoid a drugs charge if I get stopped by the police.

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It is so great that you are feeling more comfortable bolusing under difficult situations. Definately a high level diabetic skill! One thought for you, if you keep having pod problems switching to 50% of your basal from any long acting, then use the pump for the other half, and to deal with the window that Lantus gives up the ghost may be a nice compromise. My son has frequent site failures, and with always have long acting on board it makes the situation so much easier to deal with than when he went 0 basal.

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That’s a great idea!

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Not you alone. I was on an ultralente (Novo ultratard) until it was discontinued in the US (see that article; it is only necessary to read the first paragraph at this point.) I was prescribed Lantus, I was told it was equivalent.

For me, with my body, Ultratard will last me a day, Lantus will last me half a day.

Neither works in a way that is able to cover the basal requirement of someone without beta cells. It isn’t just that we don’t make our own insulin; we also don’t regulate our alpha cells, so they keep making glucagon and our livers keep releasing glucose. This is why the pod works for a basal; just as those alpha cells cause the liver to release glucose the omnipod emits just enough glucose (if programmed right) to cause the liver to re-adsorp that glucose.

One apparently weird idea that occurs to me is to use an Omnipod (or, indeed, any pump) to deliver NPH and bolus with a pen, or Afrezza; it’s safer because if the Omnipod goes out the NPH will take much longer than the recommended products to wear off (the recommended products wear off after about 8 hours).

In fact, why don’t I have two pumps; one delivers my basal NPH and the other I can use at will for micro-bolusing?

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I just started on omnipod but was on Lantus prior.

I had heavy resistance to Lantus about 4-5 years ago. I mean 50+ units on a split dose. Switched to tresiba and was taking less than half as it last almost twice as long. Then ran out of tresiba after my insurance and had to go back to Lantus and my resistance was GONE.

So my suggestion would be, talk to endo about having you start out with a little lower than basal amount you take. Give body a few days to adjust to being on Lantus again Then adjust accordingly. (I have found split dose is my best friend with Lantus.)

I hope you figure out what works for you if you have not already. I just realised how kind of old this post is :dizzy_face:

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