FUDiabetes

Running with OmniLoop

Not if it’s a lot of work for you, but I definitely enjoy reading them!

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I am so excited to read this. So glad it’s helping you with running and the day-to-day. Congrats!

Do you have a looping “how to” that you used to achieve this which you’d be willing to link to? I’m especially interested because you’re using Apple products if I recall. I’ve tried to talk EH into the Xdrip thing, but he’s unwilling to switch out of the Apple ecosystem.

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I also have been a long time, xDrip+ user on Android. I still use it because it enables me to view BGs, history, treatments, stats, etc, on my large display Android phone! I’ve set the collector to Nightscout Follower, so I can view most of the treatment data managed by Loop on Apple directly on my Android. :slight_smile:

However, when OmniLoop was released, I willingly switched to Apple and the Dexcom app as the collector. So now I usually carry two phones, iPhone SE (tiny phone) for loop which only has a data connection, and my Android phone with cellular voice connection.

Really, I just followed the excellent, online documentation for Loop:

https://loopkit.github.io/loopdocs/

I made plenty of mistakes and still make mistakes, but I read and re-read the docs many times, until I understood. The fine tuning and tootips on those pages are especially helpful in configuring settings for basal, isf, ic, dia. I learned from reading and trial and error with Loop that one’s settings are extremely important.

Also, the Looped Facebook group is great for sharing information and asking specific questions.

Good luck!! Feel free to ask any specific questions!!

Thank you! It’s not a lot of work and I don’t mind posting them, but I was unsure whether anyone found them useful!! I don’t want to be a nuisance!!

I’ll post maybe now and then when I feel like I’ve learned something new or useful related to running and Loop.

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It has been several weeks since I last posted here on Running with OmniLoop. I’m still using Loop (JoJo-beeps branch) with OmniPod, but each day may be different. I recently created a new, Overrides which gives me 20% of my scheduled basal (0.5U/hr) during a run, or 0.10U/hr. This is more or less equivalent to what I did pre-Loop. However, pre-runs are different since often times Loop will give me a few hours of ZB without me doing anything, or gives me differing amounts of basals. This can invalidate the Running tactic of 20% of basal (used successfully pre-Loop), and cause me to go high during the run. I’ve noticed this a few times. I don’t think that occurred today, yet I still went high during the run, eventually going from 95 (run start), to a high of 138. I ended up canceling my Override Running20% and resuming Scheduled Basal. Loop, however, counter acted the high with Temp Basals of up to 1.5U/hr - my max basal setting. Being impatient though, I eventually gave myself 1U towards the end of the run.

These times and distances are estimates today since I forgot my Apple Watch and could not log a Workout.

09:45 Run Start, Activate Running20% Override (Basal .10U/hr), BG 95
10:00 4 Fruit Gummies, 8g, BG 91
10:34 BG 114, Deactivate Running20% Override and resume Schedule Basal of 0.50U/hr
11:00 BG 138, 1U mg/dL
11:15 Run end, BG 127
Run time: 90 minutes
Distance: approx. 8 miles

Here is the Tidepool graph…

As shown in the graph, immediately after taking the 1U bolus I started to go down! I continued to drop (see RED in graph!) despite taking the 10g carbs but I did eventually rebound. to stable 89. What I’ve learned:

Be patient, be patient, be patient!! As @Eric advised @daisymae in Daisymaes Swimming, take each half hour at a time. I should have waited a bit longer before eating those 8g carbs at the run start, and definitely waited a bit longer before taking that 1U correction near run end! Overall, I’m okay with the run though since I was not low or high for the duration!! :slight_smile: I obviously need to work on things! Tomorrow is a beach day! I plan to do 10 miles on LI sand! :slight_smile: Hope it will be low tide!

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Today was a beach run on Long Island, in pretty great sand, with a nice breeze. Overall a great run due to the great location! :slight_smile: No bugs unlike my normal trail runs, too!

At run start, I activated a 0.10U/hr basal on Loop, and ate half a small banana. Unfortunately, I did not estimate pre-run carbs properly again today. I thought because it appeared that I was trending down to 78, I should eat. 1/2 banana was too much though. This is very odd because the last several runs, but not ALL, have had similar results - BG trending down, eat some carbs, then IMMEDIATELY spike on run start. I’m not sure why, maybe the G6 sensor (vs G5) is just quicker to respond??? YES, I’m using Dexcom G6 CGM for these BGs, not finger sticks since G6 (vs G5) seems to be remarkably accurate for me! I think for tomorrow’s run on the beach, I will not eat or eat only a small amount pre-run, and then just be ready with some carbs along the way.

One other note, at run end, I did NOT take a bolus immediately for the carbs. Not a good idea, and not something I usually do, but the graph shows the spike immediately after eating 10g! :frowning:

Here are the numbers, per Apple Health watch:

08:18 Run Start, Activate Running20% Override (Basal .10U/hr), BG 78, 1/2 Banana (10g)
08:39 BG 89, Deactivate Running20% Override and resume Schedule Basal of 0.50U/hr
09:00 BG 128, High for the run, but did not take a bolus; let Loop give 1U+ temp basals
10:16 Run end, BG 60
Run time: 1 hr 56 mins
Distance: 10.2 miles

Here is the Tidepool graph…

33%20PM

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Today was another beach run on Long Island, low tide with great sand and a strong breeze on the return run. Despite the slight highs, an overall a great run with a slight improvement over yesterday’s beach run with no lows today :slight_smile:

At run start, I activated a 0.10U/hr Overrides basal on Loop. Right away I started to trend down. I ate 4 Sports Bean 15 mins into the run, and either that was too much, or my temp basal of 0.10 was too low, because within 45 minutes I was trending high. I had to switch between the Override of 20% of Scheduled Basal and the Scheduled Basal of 0.5U. With the Scheduled Basal, it is up Loop what the temp basal will be. Loop gave anywhere from 0 to 1U for the temp. That mostly worked well, but I did eat another Sports Bean on the return just to be sure. So I am thinking for these types of runs, maybe I should either just leave my Scheduled Basal of 0.5U and have Loop manage it, or perhaps create a new Override of 50% of my Scheduled Basal. I’ll try these out in my trail runs this week.

08:51 Run Start, Activate Running20% Override (Basal .10U/hr)
09:16 BG 75, Deactivate Running20% Override and resume Schedule Basal of 0.50U/hr, 4 Sport Beans (about 8g carbs)
10:00 BG 127, High for the run, but did not take a bolus; let Loop give 0 - 1U+ temp basals
10:19 BG 111, 1 Sport Beans 1g
11:03 Run end, BG 71
Run time: 2 hr 06 mins
Distance: 11 miles

Here is the Tidepool graph…

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This is just a quick update on today’s run. Today was a very hot day - mid 90s with real feel in the 100s, but a nice, warm breeze :slight_smile: I tried to stay off the most buggy trails!

This time I used no overrides, no temp basals, just let Loop manage my basal to keep it in the scheduled range. Initially, Loop was giving 0.5U -0.6U/hr for most of the first hour as I had eaten 2+2 Sports Beans. Remaining run was at ZB. So overall, Loop did a fantastic job. I did dip down to BG 58 for a few minutes. I think next run I’ll increase my scheduled range a bit.

11:35 Run Start, BG 74, Scheduled Basal 0.5U, but Loop primarily gave ZB, 2 Sports Beans 4g carbs
12:15 BG 75, 2 Sport Beans 4g carbs
12:46 BG 72, 1 Sports Bean 2g
13:31 Run end, BG 61
Duration: 1 hr 53 mins
Distance: 10 miles

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I don’t know if part of this is because you are not getting full basal up until the time you start your run (if Loop is reducing it before your run start), but in general if I have any kind of reduced basal BEFORE a run I need a lot less carbs for any impending low. Once I have started running, I can eat the usual amount of carbs without a problem. But before I start, I only take a very small amount of carbs if I have any reduction in basal.

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Yes, this occurred to me! Frequently, Loop has already reduced my basal for a few hours before run start.

So I think you are right, I don’t need the carbs til later in the run. I’ve tried this out on the last couple of runs. It seems to work better, without getting the early spikes. Now I need to work on getting enough carbs during the run synced with what basal Loop gives me! :slight_smile:

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I can go with reduced basal before, or full basal before. Either one, different circumstances, just whatever works right for the day.

But I just have to know!

As long as I know what has been going on the previous hour or two, I am fine. I think the secret basal adjustments are not ideal for me.

Maybe “secret” is not the right word. I don’t know what the right word is. Invisible basal adjustments? Clandestine basal adjustments? Covert basal adjustments?

Are you able to get enough info from the Loop picture?

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Yes, “secret” pretty much describes it! Well, actually, yes, I can view the basals in a number of places, including the Loop app itself on the iPhone, which lists the individual Temp Basals, the Apple Health on the iPhone, and any data services I use like Tidepool and Nightscout. But since the Temp Basals are changing frequently, there could be a number of them over the past couple of hours. To get a clear indication of what the accumulated basal is, I’d have to add it up. It just isn’t as obvious as pre-Loop. And to be honest, until a few days ago, I wasn’t even considering the variable basal rate I was getting before I started my run, hence the early spikes at run start when eating! Loop also shows Active Insulin, which is IOB. So I can use that number, too, as an indication of how much basal I’m getting.

For example, this screenshot is my current Loop screen on iPhone. The Insulin Delivery graph shows the basals. The horizontal yellow line is the my Scheduled Basal which is usually set for 0.5U/hr. So currently Loop is giving me 0.3U/hr or -0.2U less than the Scheduled Basal.

I can “force” Loop to give me a specific temp basal though by pre-defining an override for a specific time period. And that is what I had been doing, like a Running Override to give 20% of Scheduled Basal. That is what I was doing, but failed to consider that my initial IOB might have already been greatly reduced at run start due to Loop’s zero basals. Does this make sense?

My last couple of runs worked out pretty well by just letting Loop keep me at my target range (which meant ZB for most of the run), and adding carbs as needed. This meant I needed to eat 2-4g carbs every half hour or so and had to keep an eye on my BG, making it a less than carefree run!! Lol. Does this seem reasonable? Is it common to have to eat this much during a run?

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If you look at the common recommendations for fueling while on a long run (anything over an hour) you are nowhere near that number!

For a long run, the American College of Sports Medicine has a recommendation of 30 to 60 grams of carbs per hour.

On average, a person can only oxidize about one gram per minute, so 60 grams is the max.

There are a lot of recommendations on ways to calculate amounts. Another way is to divide your weight by 4. That gives a little more specificity for an individual. If you weigh 100 pounds, it’s 25 grams per hour. If you are 200 pounds, it’s 50 grams per hour.

Another factor is the intensity. If you are going easy, your body is able to use a lot of fat metabolism to fuel the exercise, so you don’t need as much as if you are going hard.

Anyway, it’s challenging to be able to balance insulin and carbs in that big amount of 30-60 grams per hour. But that is the ideal for a hard hour or more.

But at 2-4 grams every 30 minutes, you are nowhere near hitting that upper amount.

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Oh, wow, I know I read your Sports Wiki for re/fueling before, but I guess I forgot this! 30g per hour seems a lot. That would basically be a full Sports Bean bag, plus water! Lol. I would definitely go high without a bolus, or maybe Loop could handle it with temp basals, but I doubt it.

I do notice that often my first hour will be fine taking a few carbs every 30 mins or so, yet I will SUDDENLY crash during the 2nd hour despite the steady flow of carb intake.

I know you recommended carbs to @Nickyghaleb in the past. Do runners typically take this large amount all at once, or slowly over the duration of the run? And then also take a bolus to get the carbs metabolized?

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If you take the carbs slowly, you can have a basal amount that you feed. Like if the basal amount you have while running can support a slow trickle of 30 grams every hour, that would work fine. As long as you are disciplined in being able to feed your basal consistently over that entire time. That’s just called “feeding the basal”.

The other option is to take it in bigger amounts, and bolus. That is what I do. For me it’s just easier. So I take 20-25 grams all at once. And try to do that frequently enough on the long runs.

But either way is fine, whatever you think is easier.

And the total amount you need is not an absolute that is always the same. It just depends on what you are doing, how hard you are running.

But…if you take it while running, you can help prevent some of the lows later when you are done!

One way or the other, your body is gonna get those carbs back, guaranteed! So I like to be proactive and give it what it needs, instead of letting it suck the glucose from my blood all night long.

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Okay, all at once does seem easier and less time consuming. I think I’m sort of already using the “feeding the basal” technique, but not properly, or at least not with sufficient carbs during the 1+ hours since I sometimes go low.

Do you typically use the same I:C ratio for this bolus as when not running? If you take the carbs all at once, do you need to pre-bolus before eating carbs to give the insulin time to work? I’m thinking since the body is moving, pre-bolus time could be greatly reduced?

Do most people wait for the 1+ hour before they start to refuel? So the first hour should not require any refueling, right, depending on what the BG is of course?

And one more question!.. If I refuel while running 1+ hours, do I need to refuel AFTER the run? Probably not, right?

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Not even close!

Maybe anywhere from about 10% to 40% of my normal IC. But it is hard to say exactly, because when you’re running you might be dropping too. So the IC might even be less insulin because of the drop which you need to fuel for (I mean, if you are dropping, you’d take less insulin than if you were not dropping).

It depends. If I am dropping or already low, I don’t need to pre-b. Usually I try to take carbs when I am around 70 and on the way down. In that case, I don’t need to pre-b.

I don’t know what most people do. But to do it properly, you should not wait a whole hour before you start. Imagine if you are running 90 minutes. Waiting an hour would mean that you are only going to be fueling the last 30 minutes with exogenous carbs! So in the case of a 90 minute run, it would be much better to do it throughout the entire 90 minutes, instead of only the last 30 minutes!

I always do. But the amount depends on how much you burned on your run.

I imagine you want to be fully stocked for the next run, right? And since you are probably not fully able to take in whatever you burn during a run, while actually running, you might end the run with some carb “debt”.

How much you burned and would want to replenish comes down to distance and intensity for your run.

Look at 3 cases:

If your are running at an RER of 0.86 you are burning 50% carbs, and 50% fat. That is a great benchmark for calculations. Using that number as a guideline, in that case, whatever calories you burned, 1/2 of that total calorie usage is stuff you will want to replace! You would want to replace the carbs used, not the fat.

At an RER of 0.70, you are pretty much burning 100% fat. So for a run like that, you don’t need to replace much of anything!

And the other extreme, at an RER of 1.00, you are burning 100% carbs.

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Okay, that is what I thought!!! I’ll have to experiment then :slight_smile:

This is my usual case, so hopefully no pre-b!

That makes it easier, too, not to have to think about it as much. :slight_smile:

Okay, this makes sense. It all depends on if I’m able to replace the expected amount during the run. Typically I only look at carbs as they relate to my BG, not for fueling! I’ll have to get used to looking at them for fueling, too!!

Today was a washout, literally, with non stop rain, so I hope to try this out tomorrow!

Thank you, @Eric!!! :blush:

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just to put in my 2 cents on this matter: my husband and i each have exactly the same Smart Phones; we have tested their accuracy out by walking exactly the same miliage, steps and stairs included, and not once did our phones show the same result :thinking:

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Yes, this was my suspicions :wink: At the same time, my running partner wears a Garmin and my Apple watch is surprisingly close in distance to her Garmin! :thinking:

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