How do you manage irregular dawn phenomenon?

I don’t have much of an issue with dawn phenomenon for the past 12 months I’ve been on Tandem C-IQ. I have sleep mode scheduled for 8 hours. I usually wake with BG in the 90s. This morning was a little higher at 109.

What I do have is Feet on the Floor (FOTF). Let’s take this morning, Woke at 109, got up walked to the bathroom and walked back and up to 119. Took my thyroid med and did a 1u bolus, because I know from experience BG will just keep rising.

When I was on MDI I would have the classic Dawn Phenomenon. BG would start rising about 4 to 5 hours of sleeping, continuing until I woke. I would do a correction to keep from going out of range,

I have a pretty good understanding of the mechanism for DP. DP is the body getting us ready to wake up and move. Hormones are released that cause, among other things, the liver to release stored glucose. This is no issue for those without diabetes. But is for both type 1 and 2. There is no insulin production in the type 1 and insulin just doesn’t work well in the type 2. This causes BG to rise too high when it would not in a non-diabetic.

FOTF is probably more of the same. Perhaps I should change C-IQ sleep schedule to 10 hours and see if that fixes the issue, but I am comfortable with doing a preventative correction bolus.

Here’s a couple of links:
How to Treat Foot to Floor Phenomenon - Taking Control Of Your Diabetes®
Feet to Floor Phenomenon

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@Eric
We can’t convert carbon atoms from fat to carbon atoms in glucose. Breakdown of either stored or dietary fatty acids from fat results in the 2 carbon Acetyl-CoA. Acetyl-CoA enters the TCA cycle, and combines with oxaloacetate. During the TCA cycle the 2 carbons from acetyl-CoA are lost as 2 CO2s. So, there is no net gain of carbon from fatty acids going to glucose. The exception is the very small amount of glycerol carbon produced during lipolysis (since glycerol is the “backbone” holding the fatty acids of fat together). Glycerol can be converted to glucose.

If fatty acid carbons could be converted to glucose, there would be no ketosis, and if dietary carbs were limited, they would just be substituted by carbs made from stored or dietary fatty acids. Therefore there would be no such thing as a keto diet, and its effects on “burning” fat.

@Jan,
I don’t think we are talking about the same thing.

I was talking about gluconeogenesis.

And clearly, when it comes to this topic, it looks everybody is talking about different stuff.

If you go to Google, and put in “converting fat to glucose”, the first two references make seemingly contradictory statements:

So it depends on if we are talking about the body’s ability to take various non-carb food sources, and being able to come up with some form of glucose from it indirectly using some metabolic pathway.

Or if we are talking about taking fat and directly converting it into glucose.

How does discussing the conversion or not of fat into glucose help to answer the original question about DP and FOTF?

I believe the question is: How do you manage irregular dawn phenomenon?

I think a good discussion of gluconeogenesis, ketosis and the metabolism of fats and proteins should be in another thread.

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You are right.

But I was just answering a post that posed the question, and it had my name tagged in it. So that’s why I was discussing that. No other reason.
:man_shrugging:

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@CarlosLuis
You are right, I didn’t mean to hijack the original post. I’m sorry. :pensive:

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Hey, guys, no worries! Interesting discussions arise from all sorts of posts. :smiley_cat:

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I didn’t want to poor ice water on anyone. I just would like to see DP and FOTF discussed fully here, and fat metabolism in another thread.

I normally don’t get too fussed about thread tangents, but this one pretty much lost the plot in my opinion.

I respect all the respondents, let’s be clear.

I am personally guilty of hijacking discussions.

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Perhaps the real problem is that DP is not fully understood by the medical community. That’s the position of both my endo and my GP and, while I never take anyone’s word as gospel, including my physicians, I’m willing to believe them when they say there is no clear cut answer. So, I don’t think anyone here is trying to misguide or mislead or hijack or anything like that. I just think that we’ve all read or heard different theories, none of which is conclusive, and we’re trying to have a discourse about an issue which plagues many of us, but to which there is no specific, agreed upon remedy that works for everyone.

On the first day of law school, back in 1981, I learned something very important:

“Reasonable minds may disagree.”

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@CatLady I found a paper on the subject

It is my opinion that the Dawn Phenomenon is a natural part of waking up. There are the release of homones such as cortisol and human growth hormone and glucagon causing a release of glucose from the liver.

The rise in blood glucose levels is keep from rising too high in those without diabetes by the secretion of insulin. Those without this perfect system of glucoregulation such as type 1 DMs and other types using insulin have to respond to the rise of BG with a correction bolus of insulin. Some with closed loop pumps may not need to do this.

I am a type 2 on a Tandem with C-IQ. Since I moved from MDI to the pump I don’t see the classic rise of BG starting around 3AM. What I do get is a steady rise of BG after getting out of bed.

I generally do a correction higher than C-IQ suggests because BG is constantly going up. This morning it suggested a bolus of .3u, but I overload that for .8u. Sometimes I will give as much as 1.2u.

The paragraph below suggests that not delaying breakfast is helpful, but those of us on thyroid meds are suppose to continue fasting for 30 to 60 minutes. It is during this period that I can see BG steadily rising.

I don’t find much correlation between the timing of exercise and DP. Lately I have been doing 30 to 60 minutes cycling after dinner. In warmer months I tend to do that in the morning. DP and FOTF seemed to be unaffected. Also I do not have any snacks before bedtime. I generally don’t have any snacks at all.

This is a real problem for type 2 DMs that are not on MDI or a pump. I used to hate that I would go in for Labs with the draw taking a couple of hours after waking. I would do a fBG finger stick at home and just before the draw seeing BG rise which corresponded to the lab results. I hate seeing those Hs in the report.

Here’s the snip from the paper:

Treatment / Management

When the presence of the dawn phenomenon is detected, especially when associated with the extended dawn phenomenon, an individual patient should be considered for earlier and more aggressive control of glucose. The prevention of long-term sequelae by minimizing exposure to hyperglycemia is key early in the disease process. Optimal insulin therapy is important in type 1 diabetes, but also in type 2 diabetes. Oral hypoglycemic agents have failed to show adequate control of the dawn phenomenon, while insulin therapy has been shown to be much more effective.

Choosing an insulin regimen must, of course, be individualized for each patient, but research has indicated that the presence of the dawn phenomenon must be considered in selecting the type of insulin and the mechanism of delivery. In studies that have demonstrated superior glycemic control with continuous insulin infusion as opposed to long-acting insulin formulations, the dawn phenomenon is likely the reason. The ability for a continuous infusion to provide a bolus in the early morning hours to counteract the dawn phenomenon is a possible explanation, as long-acting insulin preparations have no ability to achieve this. For type 1 diabetes, tight control with insulin must take into account the dawn phenomenon to avoid nocturnal hypoglycemia before the onset of early morning glucose elevations. If insulin adjustments are made based on early morning fasting glucose levels, a larger dose of insulin might be administered than would be appropriate if the dawn phenomenon magnitude was considered.[12]

Management of morning hyperglycemia should be a part of the overall diabetes control strategy. Lifestyle modification is an important component to be considered. Better control of morning glucose levels has been demonstrated by increasing the amount of exercise in the evening and by increasing the protein to carbohydrate ratio of the evening meal. Consuming breakfast is also very important. While it seems counterintuitive, an early morning meal serves to decrease the secretion of insulin-antagonistic hormones.[13][2] In recent study the use of acarbose helped with dawn phenomenon treatment, but not the use of sulfonylurea.[14]

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Ditto here. For me, DP onset varies from 3am to FOTF. Sleep mode steadily but gently reacts to that with micro doses recalculated every five minutes. I may wake up at 160 or even 170 mg/dl some mornings but when I look at those stormy wave crests of basal I know the algorithm has prevented multiple sleep disrupting alarms. Wake take bolus. Too much? Wake eat. Too little? Wake take another bolus or turn off alarm deal with it in the morning. That’s how it went for years on MDI.

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I’m on a closed-loop system and that doesn’t solve this particular problem either. I’ll see a perfectly good BG on the CGM in the waiting room, but evidently when I go sit in the chair for the blood draw I get a spike. I don’t feel anxious, but the lab shows the elevated BG, and a pump-administered correction takes a while to kick in. (The fact that sub-Q insulin acts only after a delay is why it’s smart of you to anticipate your BG rise in the morning and take a larger correction before Control-IQ knows that you need it.)

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All I know for certain is that it’s 3:30 am and my iPhone just set off a high glucose alarm (280) about 20 minutes ago, the moment I got up for one of my nightly visits to the boys’ room (literally while I was in the bathroom - took me a minute to realize what was going on), and now there’s no way I’m getting back to sleep, even though BG is already back ‘down’ to 197 with no intervention. Fun times.

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