# Basal Rates and Hormones
**URL:** https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133
**Category:** Hormones
**Created:** [May 31, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133 "2018-05-31T12:51:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Nickyghaleb](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/Nickyghaleb)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/81 "2018-07-20T01:04:57Z")
I think I’m on overload.
Ah! And at 37! Please let that be why I haven’t been able to handle anything that going on. 🙇♀️
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### Author:  [@T1Allison](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/T1Allison)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/82 "2018-07-20T01:07:05Z")
> [@ClaudnDaye](#):
>
> Basal insulin is needed to keep blood glucose levels under control, and to allow the cells to take in glucose for energy.
So is Dawn Phenomenon strictly a dumping of extra sugar? Or are there other hormones released to help get the body going that cause resistance? I’m asking bc I literally have never thought about it. I’m trying to problem-solve my erratic basal need problem so I’m going back to basics here.
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### Author:  [@ClaudnDaye](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/ClaudnDaye)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/83 "2018-07-20T01:09:56Z")
Everyone, diabetic or not goes through Dawn phenomenon, believe it or not.
The dawn phenomenon is a surge of hormones that the body produces daily in the early morning hours before we wake up. It’s usually between 4 - 8 am or so)
People with diabetes don’t have normal insulin responses to adjust for this, and may see their fasting glucose go up…
If you see this pattern, you absolutely can and should program more basal insulin to account for this BG spike.
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### Author:  [@T1Allison](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/T1Allison)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/84 "2018-07-20T01:20:12Z")
Right…and my basal rates account for it…but it sounds like it is hormones driving up basal needs there? Not just sugar?
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### Author:  [@Jen](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/Jen)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 1:46am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/85 "2018-07-20T01:46:32Z")
> [@T1Allison](#):
>
> Thoughts? @Jen, have you seen this?
I think activity definitely interacts with hormones to change things. Activity levels in and of themselves are a huge factor to figure out. I’m currently in week two and my blood sugars are crazy, 2 mmol/L to 16 mmol/L or worse every day. I’m travelling and not eating low-carb, and all my baaal rates and bolus ratios seem out of whack. I think the only way for me to get any semblance of a handle on activity and hormones is wait until I can reduce carbs again and fix my pump settings…
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### Author:  [@Jen](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/Jen)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/86 "2018-07-20T01:59:29Z")
> [@ClaudnDaye](#):
>
> The only way I would program hormone spikes into the basal rate profiles would be if they occurred at the same time each day.
It’s interwsting, because most women I’ve talked to address hormones with basal rates or basal rates and extra clouded, but never just boluses. I think it’s likekt because these things continue for weeks at a time, and can’t be handled overnight with boluses ( unless one does y sleep), and also because stacking boluses increases risk of lows. I think parents of teenagers may do the same with increasing basal. So I think the specific strategy would largely depend on the type and duration of hormones. An adrenaline spike from stress has a very different duration from puberty or female hormones that may last for days to weeks at a time…
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### Author:  [@ClaudnDaye](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/ClaudnDaye)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/87 "2018-07-20T02:11:00Z")
I would probably program a brand new basal profile for menstrual cycle.
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### Author:  [@Jen](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/Jen)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/88 "2018-07-20T02:19:40Z")
I’ve heard of some people doing that. The only problem is that then whoever you made a change to your main basal rate you’d also have to remember to make a corresponding change to the menstrual basal rate. And for me, my hormones aren’t “on” or “off”, but rather ramp up and down at various speeds that change slightly in timing, duration, and intensity each month.
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### Author:  [@ClaudnDaye](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/ClaudnDaye)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/89 "2018-07-20T02:24:33Z")
With the Omnipod we can create two totally different basal profiles… And we have multiple profiles. A normal profile, then a sick profile where all basal rates are doubled. You can have two (at least with the Omnipod) and you don’t need to remember anything after it’s set.
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### Author:  [@Eric](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/Eric)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/90 "2018-07-20T02:25:45Z")
> [@T1Allison](#):
>
> Does this question make sense? Do any of the larger community want to weigh in? @Eric? @Beacher? @bkh? @ClaudnDaye @Sam
>
> That’s right. I tagged you all on this thread. Looking for wide input on this and everything. Hope I didn’t offend anyone I didn’t tag. I want to hear from any FUDer on this.
I haven’t said anything on this thread because I thought it was about women’s hormones. It’s like me giving advice on breastfeeding. 😀
So…what’s the question?!
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### Author:  [@ClaudnDaye](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/ClaudnDaye)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/91 "2018-07-20T02:27:48Z")
Yeah she called on us specifically… The tag brought me here. Lol
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### Author:  [@Jen](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/Jen)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/92 "2018-07-20T02:30:15Z")
I can have four rates on my Ping. But what I mean is that if I had two, and decided that one segment between midnight and 4 AM needed to be upped by 0.1, then I’d have to go over to the other one and also change it’s midnight to 4 AM segment by 0.1 (or 0.2, if it were doubled). Otherwise, when I flipped over I could be running a baaal profile based on the original profile that’s now weeks or months out of date unless I’ve remembered to keep them both updated. If that makes sense… Does the Omnipod automatically update a copied profile when the original changes? (My Ping can’t copy anything, so when I start a new basal profile I’m starting over from a blank.)
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### Author:  [@T1Allison](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/T1Allison)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/93 "2018-07-20T02:32:45Z")
@Jen, Omnipod has the same limitations. Nothing auto updates with one change elsewhere.
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### Author:  [@TiaG](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/TiaG)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/94 "2018-07-20T02:37:07Z")
I think you have touched on something I’ve struggled with – namely that basal is not really a defined physiological thing. It’s essentially a tautology: it’s the amount of insulin you need to keep you flat in the absence of food. People say it’s the underlying basic metabolic rate, but that doesn’t make sense either; because your body’s metabolic rate has to do with things like eating.
My potentially unfounded hypothesis is that a basal rate’s main goal is to suppress the liver dumping of glycogen… so that’s why when you have a little bit too little, your body starts cranking out sugar and then it takes waaay more to bring that down. It’s like a switch is flipped.
As for why hormones could affect those rates – well, I would imagine it’s not just insulin resistance in the peripheral tissue – but the insulin resistance in the liver itself then.
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### Author:  [@TiaG](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/TiaG)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/95 "2018-07-20T02:39:42Z")
this seems vaguely useful as descriptor of dawn phenomenon: [https://blog.virtahealth.com/dawn-phenomenon/](https://blog.virtahealth.com/dawn-phenomenon/)
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### Author:  [@T1Allison](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/T1Allison)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/96 "2018-07-20T02:40:10Z")
> [@ClaudnDaye](#):
>
> I would probably program a brand new basal profile for menstrual cycle.
@ClaudnDaye, really, dude? I don’t expect you to read this thread but dang, dude. PROGRAMMING ONE BASAL PROFILE FOR MENSTRUAL CYCLE IS NOT THE ANSWER. (Envision a tantrum happening right now.) I know I totally broke internet etiquette here with capslock but this is the first time I’ve participated in a web forum bc it’s the first one that really seemed like a great space with great people. I really like you. But you clicked the heart on my Day 17 Dexcom graph today…which means we’re talking about Non-Menstrual Hormones! I mean, yes, it’s ovulation, but if I program an Ovulation Basal program, then I need a two-days-after-ovulation basal program, and then a Peak Progesterone basal program, and so on and so on. I am feigning outrage, btw.
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### Author:  [@ClaudnDaye](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/ClaudnDaye)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/97 "2018-07-20T02:40:39Z")
No I have to manually update any increases or decreases from hour to hour but it’s not that frequent so when I change his normal basal rate between the hours of 3am and 6am from .10 to .15 per hour I would go to my sick profile and change it for that same timeframe to .25 or .30 per hour.
It’s infrequent enough that it’s not a big deal for us.
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### Author:  [@T1Allison](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/T1Allison)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:42am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/98 "2018-07-20T02:42:38Z")
Back to my wide net question…
> [@T1Allison](#):
>
> I’ve never understood the “math” on basal rates. Like how a tenth too many units of insulin for a few hours in a row can spell trouble for me. Is a basal rate really dealing with hormone resistance more than sugar? Maybe a basal rate sets the platform for the bolus to work…because the basal is holding the insulin resistance at bay while the bolus sneaks by?
I don’t expect opinions on the female hormone side of things…what I’m asking is, WHY do your basal rates work? I’ll read @TiaG’s link right now…but my question is WHY? What all does basal combat? What causes changes? Why are such small changes in basal so much more productive than much, much larger correction boluses?
@Eric, this is right up your alley for a visual about garden sprinklers or something animated.
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### Author:  [@ClaudnDaye](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/ClaudnDaye)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/99 "2018-07-20T02:43:30Z")
This was just an example. Much the same as my example of my sons sick profile. Whatever is causing it, if it creates a unique pattern that is replicated during some defined period of time a profile can be the answer.
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### Author:  [@TiaG](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/u/TiaG)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://forum.fudiabetes.org/t/basal-rates-and-hormones/4133/100 "2018-07-20T02:44:54Z")
I think what @T1Allison is saying is that it’s a pain in the neck to keep track of a gazillion little changes in basal rates when you’re talking about the normal changes you make to basals for Liam all the time for whatever reason + all the changes associated with like seven or eight different periods of a woman’s cycle. Sorry if I’m speaking for you.
But I do think that’s a huge hassle. In fact, until yesterday I just had Samson on two basal rates: morning and night. Why? Because troubleshooting the source of lows and highs is always easier when you don’t have the tail-end of bolus insulin, seven different ISF’s to consider PLUS overlapping basal rates to untangle. So I can’t imagine how you’d both keep track of the underlying basal variation associated with hormonal fluctuations and THEN manage to carry them over on top of other changes you make.
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